ready to change
My own post on having to choose between my children and myself when it comes to church continued to bother me. I like the people, including the leaders, but this just isn't working for me. There is no resolution to the hurts I have experienced, and I have no hope of ever feeling like I am more than a 2nd class citizen there. Generally I want to resolve issues, but I've tried and there doesn't seem to be a resolution.
What now? I'll stick it out until this round of electives in Kid's Church is over. Then I guess it's on to the tried and true practice of church-hopping until I find a place that feels like home.
I really admire some of the people who are trying to be the church outside of the typical church structure, and while I could probably meet my own needs that way, if I worked at it enough, I don't see my kids profitting from it as much.
I'm starting to think about what it is that I am looking for, because it is a fuzzy concept in some ways. I want a church:
What now? I'll stick it out until this round of electives in Kid's Church is over. Then I guess it's on to the tried and true practice of church-hopping until I find a place that feels like home.
I really admire some of the people who are trying to be the church outside of the typical church structure, and while I could probably meet my own needs that way, if I worked at it enough, I don't see my kids profitting from it as much.
I'm starting to think about what it is that I am looking for, because it is a fuzzy concept in some ways. I want a church:
- where women's equality is acknowledged and lived out
- where I don't feel like there are first rate and second rate people in the congregation
- where my children can feel like they are a part of community
- where church events exist to have children and parents together rather than separating them constantly
- where many people are involved in music
- where communication is open, honest and immediate
- where trust is placed in the congregation
- where pastoral care happens
- where discussion happens
Anyone know - does such a place exist?
posted by Jude | 11:10 PM
16 Comments:
Hi Jude,
I found you via Emerging Grace, and I just wanted to encourage you. I have been out of the church for about 2 years, and the subject of my children still is a hard one for me. I don't have any words of wisdom for you on finding the right church, or what's best for your kids, I just wanted to know you're not alone on this question.
Jude,
Wendy & I will be praying for you guys. Your list is brilliant.
I'm really sorry you're going through this. I still recall a conversation we had, oh almost 20 years ago in Banff. I don't remember what exactly we talked about, but I remember being so impressed with your depth and character. Whenever we've bumped into each other in the years since, I've always gotten that same impression.
God bless you guys!
sounds like a good list. also sounds like the wounds are deep so not sure if this will be helpful, but there are some positive changes happening at the church right now. i've had my own struggles, and i'm grateful that i see changes being made. i'm sure it won't be perfect and that it may take awhile for things to be even good, but if the kids are still doing ok, maybe you could try it for a bit longer? you could come to the vision night and even talk to some people who may understand and be able to work stuff out. anyways, not meaning to give advice cuz i don't know the in's and out's of the situation, but just know that i've struggled too.
Lily - thanks for dropping in - it is hard to know what to do. I keep wondering if it really benefits my kids in the long run. What am I teaching them? When something sucks, just keep at it until it drains all the life out of you? Not good either. Let's hope we find a path that works for us and the kidlets.
Rob - I remember the Banff conversation. Today I was thinking that it's interesting you brought it up because the content is much the same as it was almost 20 years ago - feeling like I don't really fit and not sure what to do about it.
Deanna - I am starting to suspect that the hurts run too deep, and I am cynical about the possibility of change. Or to semi-quote Frodo, the change is not for me. At the same time, I would be interested to hear what you see changing or potentially changing.
I had a response yesterday and I somehow deleted it...maybe it was meant to be.
Just want to say..I know the lists. I had a long list when I came back to church culture, so to speak.
What I have found...? Not perfection by any means. We will never find everything. But what I am learning is that the more I serve, the more I get. An age old theory...and yep, it kinda works. Does it feel good all the time. Heck no, but I know that God is big. So much bigger than my questions and fears.
Soul Sanctuary...was a surprise, a welcomed detour for me. Good teaching, and connections are being made. For me, an intervert, it is harder but I am forcing myself. Kids ministry is really good, I have heard great things.
House churches...well, I really like mine. I am not saying we have everything, hardly. I wanted an inner city place to worship and connect, yet, I have that too. It is stretching yourself. Thinking, how can I be Christ, How can I live in this community...global all around us. Connecting with the body...what that looks like? Maybe a bit like Acts.
Peace to you...
Kenn, I totally agree that the willingness to give of oneself is a vital part of community life. However sometimes the very structure of church can prevent people from using their gifts and can fail to produce an atmosphere where relationships can be built. In such structures, the giving results in frustration rather than fulfillment. Churches can't be built on people like me just saying "What can you do for me?" so I have to be prepared to give of myself to build something, but it's up to the rest of the church to not keep taking my hammer away.
Does such a place exist?
Sure. Its called heaven.
We're not there yet.
So while we are here, we must deal with these horrible things called humans.
I think Christians are nice because at least they TRY not to be so human but they can't help it, they still act very human. Its so frustrating!
In the meantime, I think church (the good, the bad and the ugly) is meant to bring all these god-awful humans together to focus on God!
Apparently something very supernatural and mysterious (kinda like x-files) happens when they manage to focus on heaven in unity.
Wouldn't that be cool if there was a church where that happened and experience with God was achieved, which allowed all the things/needs on your list to be met?
I think it would rock!
So I wait...churchless like you...but there is still hope.
Your list is quite impossible.
Here is a quote from a really smart guy,
"With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."
Can you believe I just quoted scripture on a blog? Me??? Ms.Anti-religious 2006 just quoted the Bible!!!
Can you speak?
Are we really that jaded that we only think such a thing is possible in the afterlife? I wasn't writing about perfection, just some basic principles to live by. Analogy time: I love my kids. Anyone who knows me knows I love my kids. Is my love perfect? No, I get impatient, I get selfish, I yell, I fail to be understanding. But my lack of perfection does not change the general truth that I love my kids. In the same way, I believe it should be possible for a church to exude the types of principles I'm talking about.
But wait, there's more! When I fail, I have choices. I can make an explanation that makes my failure look like it's not a failure ("I yelled because I'm so concerned about you.") I could even make it look like my kids' fault ("I wouldn't have to yell if you'd just be good."). Or I can 'fess up, admit that I was the one who did wrong, and do my best to make it right.
Churches have those choices, too. When they fail to live up to their principles, they can make it look like it's not failure ("The church needs consistency in music leaders, so that's why so few people get the opportunity to participate") or that it's the person's fault ("The Holy Spirit is telling me that you're not ready for this role."). Or leaders can own it when their actions don't measure up to the values they preach ("We talked about inclusiveness but then we left out people. We did the wrong thing, and here are the steps we're going to take to live up to our words.")
Perfection, I agree, is not possible. Generally living out values is possible, and owning it when our actions don't measure up to our words is absolutely necessary.
Yes I am that jaded. I think many of the things are your list are impossible with people, because the church environment (as it currently exists) sets people up to fail.
Like you are saying, it is about what it looks like-- a holiness contest requires that you look, act and behave all holi-like- so making those choices you are talking about, in the current environment are not an option.
That is, it is not an option if you choose to play the church game.
Please explain the concept of "church game", using examples. (I am preparing for my future career as college professor)
Church Game:
Sit still and listen, do not ask questions.
Be respectful of all clergy, they are holier and wiser than you are.
Appear Holy at all times.
Say nice words even if you are thinking nasty evil thoughts in your head.
Smile sweetly even if you feel crappy about yourself or others.
Speak in Christianese.
Talk about other people behind their backs but be gentile and polite to their faces so they have no idea how you REALLY feel about them.
Act completely different in the church building than you would at home, work or other places that are not church.
Tell everyone that you love them, even if you aren't really sure who they are and mention how you should get together with them because you love them but then fail to phone them or meet them outside of the church.
There are several other inconsistencies and hypocrosies that can be applied but I think you get the picture.
Basically, if words/actions/speech are totally different on Sunday morning than they are the rest of the week, and a person is not sure which one is REAL ...that person is probably playing the church game!
ps
These theories of mine have been developed over a lifetime of church experiences beginning since infancy.
A part of my disillusionment with the church is expressed in frustration and anger. But I also want to be clear that not ALL my church experiences have been negative.
You take the good with the bad. Its just that looking at the bad for the first time can be frustrating, maddening and even painful.
Be gentile - I don't have a promise with that, I would have a hard time being jewish.
good comments...I like the church game thoughts.
I too hate playing church, that's why I don't.
I spent a lifetime...okay, I am middle aged...so not quite a lifetime, playing someone I was not. A good christian man. Yet on the inside...a raging sex addict, drug user and basically a crazy broken mess, but nobody could see that.
Now I know that it is vital for me, to know who I am...know who I am in terms of worshiping, fellowshipping with others. This week, I admitted to my small group that I had my annual HIV test and was worried about it. That I was scared to death. It is hard to be open to people who may think...Oh, my God, I cannot touch Kenny...who knows!
So ya...why did I say this?
I guess, it is that I have found an imperfect church which I feel okay admitting that I am broken in.
Not done Erica: How is the church game different than the rest of the world game. E.g. - I've seen people at work say mean things behind others' backs and then be nice to their faces; I've seen companies with a yes-man mentality because upper-management supposedly knows better than the rest of us. Is the church game just the world game but it's frustrating not because it's unique but because we of all people should know better?
Kenny - Okay, I'm ignorant here - is it recommended to have an annual AIDS test now? Is that for forever or is there some point in time after enough negative tests that one can stop.
I can understand why you would be anxious. When do you get the results back? And for the record, here are 2 people who will not be afraid of you.
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